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Thanks!

I use to quote half of this verse until I read “till” in Isaiah 42:4. We use to read “a bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench” to people who were struggling with fornication but were repentent and then I read the word “till” and then I felt like I was unknowingly lieing to them.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

It says that his ear is not heavy that it cannot hear so God can hear. It says He hid his face from us.

The quick answer is that God is not unable to see sin but God can’t condone it without disapproval or without wrath so maybe that is why God hides his face but there are verses which say that God can look upon evil:

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Job 11:11 For he knoweth vain men: he seeth wickedness also; will he not then consider [it]?
Psalm 10:14 Thou hast seen [it]; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite [it] with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.

The distinction between Habakkuk 1:13 and the other verses is if God looked upon iniquity then He couldn’t hold His tongue when the wicked devoureth.

Habakkuk 1:13 [Thou art] of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, [and] holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth [the man that is] more righteous than he?

How can Jesus be God and have people stand in His presence including the worst of sinners? You have to understand in the incarnation, God took on an additional nature:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Let me back up to John 1:1 so other people can understand:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

“Word” is used for God and this “Word” became “flesh”. It is the same word used for God and used for Jesus.

Yes, God hates sin:

Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:
Proverb 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.
Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.
And He is Holy:

Psalm 22:3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

And when Jesus was on the cross, He bore our sins and God didn’t look on Him so that He could look on us:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Our God knows that we were set up but realises that we could have a second, third or fourth chance and be redeemed and look upon us as what we’re not:

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Because Jesus took God’s wrath for us, we are:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Jesus took of His glory robe and was veiled in flesh and made Himself of no reputation so I think God for a time cloaked some of his attributes or rights.

Psalm 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent;you thought I was altogether[fn1] like you.
But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.

I do indeed look at scripture in totality – men are free to reject God (the Truth) or not. Why else would some be worse off than those at Sodom?

The Truth of God is written on every man’s heart – thus God’s word when rightly proclaimed has the divine power of God to transform lives – and bring salvation, even among the “dead.” You may call that “supernatrual” – no problem here. If, however, you are implying God predestines some to specically Hell – that I would say is not only bad theology, it is not supported by scripture.

I humbly disagree when we look at the scripture in its totality Regarding Romans 9. The entire chapter when looked in its completeness clearly shows the elective process of God. For example when we read it in its entirety it states:

Romans 9
What we need to apply is exegesis when understanding the text. When we read in totality we see that God is the one who chooses and man responds and not the other way around. in fact, oftentimes when we look at the debate between monergism vs synegism the rift is actually not that great but rather a debate as to which one is the cart and which one is the horse if you know what I mean.

Now how does this pertain to the topic? Simple! God being a loving God saves sinners. Now as for Homosexuals who twist the scripture of John 3:16 they are using eisegesis to create a god which is accepting of their lifestyle. And why wouldn’t they? Mankind like the bible states is inherently evil. Psalm 58:3 states, “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” So the question needs to be asked is it even surprising that fallen man who loves sin and is dead to the spiritual things of God even want to come to the truth? The answer is plainly NO! Therefore it takes the divine to interrupt that dead persons way of existence. Then and only then can anyone truly understand the Love of God. For example, did not Paul have the knowledge and the Law of God? Of course! Then why would it take a supernatural event to open Paul’s eyes to what plainly should have been apparent? Simple! Mankind des not have the capacity to accept the Love and forgiveness of God lest they were Loved first by God and that same God applying his Sovereign Grace to that once dead individual bringing that person to repentance. So the question that needs to be answered is does God “Love” the world as some deem love? Of course not! That Love is as I stated above is “common Grace” applied to the wicked and the saved alike. However, Love for an individual and the bringing that soul from darkness into light is something which can only be initiated by a Sovereign electing God. Again, How does this pertain to the abuse of John 3:16 by homosexuals. Well, I say it is the same abuse by the universalist. In other words it’s eisegesis being applied by a particular group to satisfy that groups own ends. Therefore, it is only by God’s grace which is initiated by that same God to save sinners and make them alive and not the other way around. God quickens the dead which allows them to believe. Dead people no matter how animated and may seem alive are spiritually dead. Dead people can’t discern spiritual things thus lack the capacity to “believeth in him” unless he first brings them to life.

Kyle

I don’t really adhere to your conclusions about the “left” or “right” although ot many it may appear to be so. That said – the attributes of God are found in His word. I think you’re concentrating on worldly – social concerns, not spiritual concerns. The cure (for sin) then can’t be social or economic.

Think of it this way – sin was in essence God’s problem; Sin in fact has been delt with by God – Jesus Christ. God’s love is self evident, thus so His is Wrath – both of which are Holy. You can’t separate the two – that is simply re-defining God to meet a temporary flesh driven ends.

God is indeed King – not man. That is not tyrannical in any sense. Who else provides perfect justice? Who else paid the death sentence for my sin? Who else gave mankind the greatest loving act of all eternity? Oh yes indeed – Let me fall into God’s hand before men’s hands any day, eh?

Lastly – want to see God’s wrath, look at the Cross.

Want to see God’s love – look at the Cross.

Merry Christmas indeed!

Mark, How do you hold true to the notion of God being full of wrath in the ‘light’ of Romans 13:10, Jeremiah 29:11.

Maybe my understanding is elementary but it would seem to me that God is not in the business of harming people. The aformentioned scriptures make it clear. Love worketh NO ill against its neighbor. Jeremiah 29:11 says God plans to propser us not to harm us. Yet, conservative theolgians make God seem so petty, vengeful, and even… tyrannical?

To be fair the LEFT paints God as warm and fuzzy and the RIGHT paints God as hell-fire-and-brimstone, judgmental and mean. Where can the truth of God’s personhood be found?

Thanks,
Tony

Romans 9:13 NASB – “13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
The word for “hated” is also the same word used in Luke 14:26 – 26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.”

It says nothing about condemnation or Hell, rather it points us to God’s Sovereign will to use some and reject others. Clearly Luke is not telling us to “hate” our parents – rather we are to choose God first, even over our parents as God choose Jacob over Esau – for good reason (their choices/responses to God – FREE WILL). It would also be beneficial to note and consider Romans 9:13 (Paul’s reminder) against Obadiah 1:17-18; that Esau is not being referred to as an individual, but rather the nation of Edom – the decedents of Esau who hated God and opposed Israel.

When God “hardened” the Pharaoh’s heart it was only after God gave him many plagues (act’s of grace in my opinion) and he rejected them. Over and over the Pharaoh refused to submit to God’s authority and power even as an eye witness to His authority and power. If one thinks God prevented the Pharaoh from responding to Him, I would submit that one has just changed the very character (definition) of God.

Conclusion – God’s foreknowledge does not equate to predestination & the Bible does not teach any man is predestined to Hell.

as far as the gcm’s “love” – . In the name of “love” all religions lead to God; in the name of “love” we must change and adapt to our culture or social circumstances. It logically follows that same sex relationships should be counted as holy and blessed by the christian faith. After all, what could possibly be wrong with two people loving one another? In postmodern thought, it is not the biblical texts that play an indispensable role, but the community itself. Salvation becomes relative, if not entirely subjective. Man, not divine revelation takes logical priority in determining right from wrong, truth from error.

Those who think they can wrap themselves in the fig leaves of their loving intentions and actions toward God and neighbor are in for a big surprise. ‘Just love God and people’ is not the gospel; it is precisely that holy demand of the law that we have grievously failed to keep. Where much of the preaching today (illustrated by Joyce Meyer’s comment above) offers a false distinction between law and love, the biblical distinction is between law and gospel. Our love toward God and neighbor is the essence of the law; God’s love toward us in Jesus Christ is the essence of the gospel. ‘In this love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins’ ( 1 John 4:10 )
- Michael Horton, Christless Christianity (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2008), 136

Merry Christmas !

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208-9;&version=9;

What we can see is that God does in fact love his children who are saved and have been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. And likewise we can see that God does in fact love his creation both saved and unsaved in totality in John 3:16. It is only when we understand that when we apply the word love we must put it into the context between the individual vs the aggregate and when directed towards a specific object. For example, in our language we say “love” all the time. I love pizza. I love my Mom. I love my cat. I love God. However, the question needs to be asked what and how is the afore mentioned word “love” applied. Can it be applied uniformly across ALL things? No! I hope you love your Mom more than you love Pizza. I hope you Love God more than your cat. You see love can’t be equally applied in every situation.

That being said God IS LOVE. But we need to understand what that means in context in totality vs individual. Once we grasp this we can understand how both Salvation and Damnation is reconcilable.

1st Corinithians 13: Faith, Hope, and Charity.. .but of these three Love is the greatest.

To be clear, LOVE is greater than faith, greater than hope.