Isnt the “when they knew God…” a reference to a past relationship, perhaps even in the broadest context?

Well, Romans 1 is also about covenant theology (albeit not in the baptizing infants sense!). In ancient near eastern society, there was what was called a suzerain covenant. It would be initiated by a the suzerain, or in western terminology an emperor, and a vassal, or a king over whom the suzerain (emperor) had jurisdiction. In this arrangement, the covenant, or contract, between the suzerain and the vassal made the vassal the sole representative of his entire people, his entire tribe or kingdom. Transferring it to a modern sense, were the head of the United Nations (the suzerain) to make a treaty with the president of the United States (the vassal) for all intents and purposes according to the covenant, the president of the United States IS the United States, fully representing the people. Please note that in the suzerain covenant context, no such thing as individuality, democracy, freedom of will or conscience, etc. exists. Within the vassal population, all distinctions, all individuals, etc. are bound up within the one individual covenant representative, who becomes their personification. There are no individuals, the vassal IS his tribe or his nation, and the suzerain is well within his rights according to the contract to punish the entire population (to the very extent of wiping them out) because of the misdeed of their vassal representative (the king/tribal chieftain/president), or hold the vassal representative personally and fully responsible for any failures that he has in governing his people in a way that fulfills the terms of the covenant. So, if the people are loyal to the suzerain emperor pay their taxes as required under the covenant but the king/chieftain/president refuses to hand them over to the suzerain/emperor, the suzerain/emperor is within his rights to wipe the entire population of the nation out because of the actions of the vassal alone. Or if the vassal king is loyal to the suzerain emperor and wants to pay the taxes, but the people or the princes rebel and refuse to pay them, the suzerain emperor is not obliged to accept the rebelliousness of the vassal king’s subjects as an excuse, because it is the vassal king’s implied responsibility to govern and control his people well enough to live up to the terms of the covenant, and further the ability of a king to govern his people is inherently the duty of a king in the first place.

Another point: these suzerain covenants did not have to be entered into by mutual agreement or negotiation, or at the request of the vassal king. (In most practical senses they could be, but they did not have to be.) Instead, the suzerain was well within his rights to unilaterally impose the covenant on his vassal king because of the sovereignty and superior strength of the suzerain emperor with respect to the vassal king. The suzerain emperor’s position: I am stronger than you. I can wipe you off the map, commit genocide against your population. If you want your people to live, you will accept this covenant and keep its terms, and if your people want to live, they had better accept your rule over them so that you can keep the terms of the covenant.

Now that is the basis that God deals with mankind. He is the sovereign emperor, and moreover He has total ownership rights of creation to do with as He chooses. God has made several of these sorts of covenants with mankind. One of those was the Sinai covenant, with the first vassal (or covenant representative) being Moses, and after that the series of judges and kings who followed after him representing the Jews. Another of those was the Abrahamic covenant, with Abraham being the vassal and representing the people of God. Another of those was the Noahic covenant, with Noah being the vassal representing all mankind after the flood. And of course, there is the new covenant of grace, with Jesus Christ being the covenant representative of the church. So, not only is Jesus Christ the head of the church and we the Body of Christ (subjects of His kingdom) in a spiritual sense, but also in a legal contract sense. God the Father is the suzerain emperor, God the Son is the vassal king, and the church are the subjects of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone represents the church before the Father, and Jesus Christ has been given charge and rule over the church according to the terms of the covenant contract between God the Father and God the Son.

Now I mentioned that Noah was the covenant representative of all mankind after the flood. Well, Adam was the covenant representative of all mankind, period. Look at the Hebrew: Adam in Hebrew literally means “human.” (That is why so many people, even people who are more or less evangelical and believe in a Holy Spirit inspired literally interpreted inerrant Bible as the final authority, have wondered if the Adam and Eve and Garden of Eve story was actually a parable to explain the fall of mankind, that Genesis 1:26-29 was the actual creation of man story.) So the name of man, the name of humanity actually is Adam, because being the vassal king (recall Adam was given a kingdom, dominion of the earth) he was the sole representative of the entire race, the personification of the entire race, and in a legal sense was the entire race. That is what original sin can be based on. It does not need to be this mystical thing that Roman Catholics teach, mysticism that according to their beliefs required Mary to be an eternal virgin and born free of original sin. Instead, original sin that condemns all mankind is due to Adam, standing in our behalf as our king, breaking his contract with the suzerain emperor Jehovah (which, by the way, being plural, is a Name that refers to the entire Trinity). And incidentally, the covenant with God was never made with Eve. Instead, Adam was Eve’s king and covenant representative just as much as you or I was. As a result, though Eve sinned first and suborned Adam’s sin, the consequences of her action were only herself. As a result, the spiritual (and legal) consequences of the fall were only propagated through the male seed. The female seed (ovum) is, well, “not under contract.” Females pick up original sin because they receive the “contract” from the male seed at the time of conception. But one born without male seed is not under contract, and therefore is not under original sin. This is the case with Jesus Christ. Yet as Adam and Eve were both equal, Jesus Christ was still fully human based on the female ovum. Incidentally, this is something that biology, genetics, has verified with human X and Y chromosomes! (Please don’t get into the issue of cloning humans, another topic for another day.)

So that is what Romans 1 was talking about, in a covenant sense. Adam knew God, and through him all mankind knew God. And do not forget about Noah and his covenant. Noah knew God, and through him all mankind that came after the flood knew God.

Now that is the best explanation that we can come up with for Romans 1:18-32 based on the Bible alone, and it is more than sufficient. It is also possible, however, that Paul was referring to a extrabiblical Jewish tradition that no longer exists (it may have been oral, or if it was written it may have been destroyed by the Romans along with the temple in 70 A.D., as Yochanan ben Zakkai, the creator of modern Judaism, was only able to get a few scrolls out due to his deal with the Roman general, I think Vespasian was his name) that detailed God’s dealings with mankind between the Garden of Eden and the flood and explained – among other things – how Cain and Abel knew to make burnt sacrifices, the meaning of Genesis 4:26 (And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD), more information on Enoch, etc. I personally doubt that Paul was referring to a relationship between God and man given in extrabiblical sources, but I do not rule it out, but the thing is that even if Paul was referencing an extrabiblical source, God’s knowing man through Adam (and Noah) in a covenant sense is true as well … at the very most they are both true simultaneously, with one not contradicting the other, and either being enough to adequately explain Romans 1 independently of the other.

Further, even if Paul was referring to an extrabiblical source, the effects of Adam’s rebellion are still logically, legally and spiritually prior, because even the rebellion, the rejection of God that any extrabiblical source speaks of that took place at some point between the fall and the flood only happened as a result of Adam anyway. So at its root, either way “when they knew God” derives to “when ADAM knew God”, and by extension “when NOAH” knew God, and if Noah is in view here then the rejection of God spoken of by Romans 1 refers to the Tower of Babylon incident.

So Romans 1 does not refer to those who were once in the Christian faith. Not only does it speak of a period that long predates Christianity, but please keep in mind: there is a difference between knowing God and having faith. Adam and Eve knew God. Judas Iscariot knew God, Jesus Christ. And of course, Satan and his demons know God.

James 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

So knowing God and having faith, saving faith, are clearly two different things. Again, go back to the parable of the sower. Consider the ones who receive the seed of the gospel, and a plant actually grows, but either in stony soil or weedy soil. This refers to people who actually believe in Jesus Christ, His deity, His resurrection etc. and even do mighty works in His Name. Example: Judas Iscariot, who was an apostle, who was sent out with the 12 to preach and do works along with all the rest. So Judas Iscariot KNEW GOD. But as Judas Iscariot proved, knowing God is one thing, saving faith is another. Romans 1 does not refer to anyone who was given saving faith by God and became born again Christians as a result.

By the way, I am no great theologian. I just have a good commentary on Romans!

But you do not think that Romans 1 is at all applicable to both mankind in general (the natural arguement) and those who were once in the faith? Isnt the “when they knew God…” a reference to a past relationship, perhaps even in the broadest context?

I remember when I was saved I saw this “vision” of people spitting, throwing rocks and yelling at Christ. Although I was perplexed at why he deserved such treatment, when I looked again closely I saw my own face in the crowd.

He told me he endured it all for me. Oh, the contradiction of sinners against himself!

“Which leads me to ask is Romans 1 also about those who have once been in the faith (when they knew God, they glorified him not as God)?”

No. You are leaving out a key component. Now go back to the Old Testament prophets. They didn’t just go off and pronounce judgment on Israel. First, they presented their legal case, their lawsuit based on the sins of Israel. They would give the terms of the Deuteronomic covenant, give the curses that came as a result of breaking the covenant, and then tell how Israel broke the covenant, and then finally state that because Israel broke the covenant the curses, the judgment was coming. That is what Paul is doing in Romans 1.

Now Paul primarily is speaking of the primordial period, before Noah and such, but it is applicable to all mankind. Romans 1 is generally called a statement of general revelation, natural theology.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”

In this, Paul was giving his lawsuit, conviction, and judgment against the entire human race, especially those at the Tower and Babel and prior, but also the entire human race. Paul states that the mere existence of creation and observation of creation’s nature (orderly, self – sustaining) was enough to reveal to man not only the existence of God, but also God’s nature, and therefore to worship, serve, and fear God based solely on what they observed from this revelation.

But mankind rejected this revelation of God and instead became evil idolators. Why? Because of the effects of the fall of Adam, which blinded their eyes. Original sin. Yet, because of general revelation, on judgment day, no one can claim that God treated them unfairly, including those who died without ever having heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. General revelation was sufficient to bring men to salvation, but men (because of original sin) rejected general revelation. So all people, the whole world, will face judgment unless they are called out of the world by God the Father (ekklesia, means “called out” and is translated as “the church”) and saved from the world by Jesus Christ. General revelation is what Paul was referring to later in Romans, Romans 2:13-15 when he stated that there was sin, judgment and death even without the law, because through general revelation (or common grace) they possess a form of righteousness and therefore “are a law unto themselves.” (It is through common grace, for instance, is how an unsaved man can still very much love his child even to the point of giving up his life for him.)

So Romans 1, or at least the portion does not at any time refer to those who were once in the faith, the church. Romans 1, or at least the portion of it that you are referring to, only refers to the world which the church was called out of. Romans 1 refers to the tares, not the wheat. Both the wheat and the tares, the elect and the non – elect, must inhabit the world together. The reprobation of Romans 1, which has its origin in Adam and whose judgment of wrath will be based on their rejecting general revelation because of the effects of original sin, refers to the tares. I suppose that you can say that it also refers to people who were once in the faith but did not endure to the end, but they are only a small subset of the much larger group of tares.

“Job was saying that it was because I didnt justify my sin while knowing it was wrong.”

That is not what I was saying. That doctrine, while useful in other contexts (i.e. those who continue in their sin according to the Johannine epistles and also people like the one that Paul delivered unto Satan because he refused to leave the incestuous relationship with his mother) does not apply here. I am saying, and the Bible says, that what you did before you were unsaved does not matter. God will save you no matter your sin and will wipe the slate clean.

Now you might have had intellectual knowledge of the truth. You might have even believed and known it to be true. But you were not saved. You were saved when God saw fit to save you, period. You had nothing to do with it because, by your own testimony, you were powerless to do anything. Now after God saves you, why would He hold against you what you were doing while you were powerless to do anything else but sin? It isn’t intellectual knowledge of or belief in the gospel that keeps you from sin. If that were the case, salvation would be by works, with your belief being a work, and you would be able to boast in your belief, saying that you were better, more righteous, or holier than the next person because of your belief, and that is why Satan’s hold on you was broken, through your own belief. No, what keeps you from sin is God, more specifically the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And when do you receive the indwelling Holy Spirit? Upon your salvation.

Evidence is this is Simon Peter. Before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, Simon Peter was living under the law. So without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit’s ministry, this same Simon Peter denied the Lord three times! Denied Him after being with Him more than three years, seeing Him raise Lazarus from the dead, witnessing the transfiguration, all of it! But after the Holy Spirit came, the same Peter who denied the Lord because of fear of being arrested continued to preach and teach right under the very noses of the Sanhedrin because he no longer feared death!

Look, plenty of people justify their sins while knowing that it is wrong and are saved. Why? Because they repent, submit to Jesus Christ as their Savior. Plenty of people are wracked with guilt because of their sins but are never saved. Why? Because they never repent, or if they repent they never submit to Jesus Christ, but instead try to justify themselves with works or go after a false gospel or a false religion entirely. Or, like Judas Iscariot, their guilt drives them to commit suicide. And why did Judas Iscariot betray Jesus Christ and never repent? Because he never believed. He was perfidious, faithless as Esau.

Why did this Judas Iscariot never believe? Because he never received the measure of faith. Who gives the measure of faith? God does. So whether you are a proud, boastful self – justifying sinner or a grieving, sad pathetic mess of a sinner, you will never be saved unless you receive from God a measure of faith. Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus Christ. Simon Peter denied Him (and denying Christ after seeing His mighty works was indeed a form of blasphemy). So were they really so different?

Was I so different? No. I spent my college years as an atheist, denying and mocking God despite having been raised for 18 years in a Pentecostal church. So tell me, who’s sin was worse? What you did for 11 years, or my denying and mocking God for 8?

I will not even repeat to you the evil wicked blasphemies that I said against Jesus Christ during that time because I don’t want anyone else to read them and get any ideas. And during this time, I would become extremely troubled, very depressed to the point where at various times I would contemplate suicide. Now I ask you, Pastor Foster, in what way was your sin worse than mine? And why did I not do as Judas Iscariot and go hang myself?

I can tell you, it had NOTHING to do with the fact that “I didn’t justify my sin while knowing it was wrong.” Do you know why not? Because though I was willing to utter blasphemies against Jesus Christ, and though I was willing to utter blasphemies against God the Father, I WOULD NOT UTTER A BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT BECAUSE I HAD SEEN WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IT. One of my atheist “friends” tried to get me to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, tried several times, but I wouldn’t do it! I couldn’t do it because I WAS TOO SCARED, TOO FRIGHTENED, TOO COWARDLY! Not wise. Not holy. COWARDLY. I WAS A COWARD AND A HYPOCRITE! So I wouldn’t do it because of my cowardice and hypocrisy. So I ask: did this cowardly hypocrite choose God? How? The Bible says that there is no salvation for cowards, no salvation for hypocrites.

And I have yet to even tell you about some of the OTHER things that I used to do, that I used to THINK. So again, were you, Pastor Foster, a worse sinner than I? Salvation comes because God deals those whom He decides to save a measure of faith, gives them to the Son, and the Spirit acts on that faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. The Word of God = Jesus Christ. Jesus in Hebrew is Yeshua. Yeshua translated into English is GOD SAVES. Not by works. Not by man. Not by decisions. But GOD SAVES.

God saved you, and there wasn’t anything that you could do about it, nothing that you could do to stop or prevent it. And you tried. You tried to stop God from saving you. You tried to stop God from saving you because you were wicked. Your heart was deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who could know it? You were totally depraved, a dead man with no interest in spiritual things, a rebel, a vagabond upon the earth, a scoundrel. So you didn’t want God. You didn’t want to be saved. You did not have the capacity to want these things because it was against your nature. Since when does darkness want anything to do with light, let alone be overcome by the light?

So all that time, you were boxing with God. But guess what … your arms were too short! Man cannot prevail against God. Man cannot run from God. God is too powerful. Though he may struggle and cast about for a season, ultimately man has no choice but to submit to God’s Will, whether that will be salvation and grace, or judgment and destruction.

So what you have to do is quit spinning. Quit trying to figure it out. All you will do is frustrate yourself, wear yourself out and burn yourself out like John Calvin did, who spent so many years trying to figure out how many angels could dance on the head of a pin that he had ulcers, migraines, insomnia, exhaustion (among other stress – induced health problems) and ultimately went to an early grave. You won’t be able to figure these things out because it is not meant for you to. It is a mystery. If you could understand it all, why would you need faith? Having all the answers isn’t for the faithful, it is for the faithless. Faith is things that you can’t see, that you can’t understand. That is why we have to be like children. Other than some vague notions about the refrigerator, the kitchen, and grocery stores, a child doesn’t know where his meals come from, and he doesn’t care. All he cares about is that when dinner time comes he is going to eat! The workings of God, the love of God, is incomprehensible, irrational, impossible to understand. Our job is to stop fighting, stop struggling, and to submit and just let God work on us, work THROUGH us.

Ultimately, every Christian has to accept that we will NEVER be able to understand or figure out why God saved us. Truth be told, from the perspective of our puny minds, is that THERE IS NO REASON. We were saved because it was God’s pleasure to save us. Whether it was arbitrary or according to some formula or system, we are never going to know in this life and will probably never know ever for eternity. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter. God is sovereign, so whoever He decides to save for whatever reason that He decides to save Him, He is well within His rights, and it only happens because it is His Will and so that He may be glorified.

Because let me tell you, Pastor Foster, it was no accident that you were born in a nation with a lot of Christians, a lot of churches, etc. instead of in India, Peru or someplace in 45 A.D. where you would have never had the chance to even hear of Jesus Christ to accept or reject Him. You were born in the time and place that you were because it was God’s Will for Him to save you. So even if you can figure out things pertaining to your 11 years in that lifestyle, so what. Can you figure out why you were born in “heavily Christianized” America as opposed to in China in 3500 A.D.? You can’t, because it is a mystery. Not for you to know, not for you to even think about, because thinking about it won’t make you an inch taller or grow a single hair on your head, because if it did I would do it, because I would love to be 6’4″ and I would love to be rid of this male pattern balding!

So let the high things be and stick to the things that are foolish, offensive and simple, because it is by those things that men are saved, including you.

We compare ourselves with ourselves and say, “Well I wasn’t as wicked as the child molester, murder, rapist, or ‘God forbid’ the homosexual. I agree that our degree of sinfulness is not equal. However, compared to God who is (Holy, Holy, Holy), one act of disobedience whether it’s eating from the forbidden fruit or homosexuality is wickedness worthy of death and eternal damnation. Therefore, we have to see our pre-regenerate selves for who we were “wicked.” We were not simply good people whom God made better. We were sinners whom Christ has justified.

How many people read the Bible and identify themselves with the heroes of faith like Abraham, King David, Elijah, Mary, Peter, or Paul. Rarely do people read the Bible and identify themselves with the villain. They don’t see themselves as a citizen of Sodom and Gomorrah. They see themselves as righteous Lot. Who sees their face in the crowd and hear their voice crying “Crucify Him?” Who sees themselves mocking, wagging their heads, and spitting into the face of Jesus? Who sees themselves nailing Him to the cross and laughing at His pain? Who sees themselves having a picnic while the Son of God is being crucified? We tend to leave all the blame for the cross at the feet of the Jews and Romans. We don’t see that they were just representatives for us (humanity) both Jews and Gentiles. The true nature of mankind was revealed through the brutality and savageness of the cross. We tend to place ourselves at the foot of the cross with Mary and John weeping for the savior. But would that really be where we would have been?

Let us not forget what Paul said to the Jews in Romans 2 just the next chapter over as he was listing some of the sins reprobates commit as the Jews (who also had an hyper inflated view of themselves) were listening with disgust. Paul sobered them with the truth that they were doing the same things that he had just listed. I think that if we humble ourselves to the truth of the Word, we will see we were also doing some of the same things. But the Lord brought us to repentance, justification, sanctification, and soon glorification.

1st Timothy 1:12-17 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

God can save even the worst of sinners. I’m living proof. The Blood is sufficient!