Open Forum VIII: Sin and the church
I will be traveling and unavailable for the next few days, but a great question by “Drillsgt” will become the lead topic of our 8th open forum. Here it is. Personally, I think that I and others on the blog have answered this in great detail over the last two years, but perhaps it may be time for a more succinct discussion.
Question for GCMW and All:
1. Other than tolerance of Homosexuality, what other sinful topics or behaviors do you see the church participating in?
2. Do you see this same sinful behavior at the churchs that you attend regularly?
3. How do you feel that this topic relates to the different denominations within the church ie.(Baptist vs. Apostolic vs. Catholic etc?
All normal commenting rules apply.
41 comments
One of the primary sins I see is that people are idolizing their pastors, putting them up on a pedestal to the point where nothing that they do can be questioned. Idolatry and putting “other gods” before the one true God is a sin, and many pastors have no accountability to the flock whatsoever.
I recently left a megachurch after 13 years where all of the power rested in the hands of the Pastor and the “first family.” There are no deacons or trustees. There is a “advisory board” which is no more than a rubber stamp for the pastor; after all, the members of the board are all employees at the church, so how much objectivity could there be. In 13 years, the members NEVER received one financial report and were only told bits and pieces of the expense picture after the funds had already been spent. We were told that the church was audited annually, but the members were not privy to the results of the audit. Yet, raising money became the primary focus, as members were admonished to “sow a seed” (meaning give money to the church) whenever they had an issue, challenge or were seeking wisdom on an issue.
I’m not sure which additional sin(s) have been committed but with too many of the “prosperity” ministries, the focus is on the individual and what they can get materially. The focus is no longer on the “we” part of ministry and what we can do collectively for others. This is also a reflection of the culture that we now find ourselves in where the emphasis on “me” has led to the dissolution of families and much of our non-government safety net.
Many women do not dress modestly and I know as a man it has been really rough at times, in CHURH!
Pride in leadership and abuse of members by the Pastor
Not taking care of the poorer folk in our congregation but the Pastor is livin lavishly.
I have seen these things in different churches I have been a member of and the lack of modesty is big time in most churches.
Focus being on money and not ministry.
Not sure about question 3, dont really go into the denominational thing.
I see a lot of laziness like it aint funny. People seem to be congratulating themselves just because they “pressed their way” out to the service. Weakness and passivity is being engrained into people (except with getting that money).
Evangelism is a one hour service of D-class ministers one after the other, and discipleship/bible study is just another platform for the pastor to get his mid-week preach on.
Even in my own church I have encountered too many people that see church as a place to come, sit observe. The call to service –true service— to the kingdom is balked at.
Personally, my concepts of church is changing. I am favoring more and more the 1st century model of church. Today’s church is a political system grind built largely upon the demands of mammon.
Another mega sin if you ask me.
What I have encountered often in my church along with idolatry and tolerance of homosexuality (really ALL sexual sin) is a sociopathic mentality. Sisters and brothers no longer have a moral compass; there are no absolutes anymore. My church is like the world; as much like it as it can get. The pastor preaches the word, not a feel-good sermon, but not the kind that is convicting anyone to change. People who stand up for righteousness are shunned and ostrasized, and eventually run out of the church by their peers and/or the “elders” of the church. They chew pastors and music ministers up and spit them out. It is OK to play secular music on the organ at church as well and mix it into the sacred music. I was part of the music ministry for over 12 years and I just recently resigned. I cannot continue to be a part of it. I have spoken to several people and they all say, “Well, just pray for the church….” Uh, hello?!? What do you think I have been doing? Prayer works when people actually desire to live for the LORD. The powers that be in my church do not, which is why my husband and child are now at home on Sundays.
Love of money, and manipulation of people in order to get it; selfish ambitions (striving to become the biggest, most exciting, wealthiest, most popular…etc.); pride (to the hilt!); compromise; adultery (especially in the ministry); failure to seek God (both the pew and the pulpit are too busy to really seek God).
Yes, I see all these things in my church and in many other churches I’ve visited or observed. I’m afraid that this generation of “Christians” have swallowed the lie, and aligned themselves with the “world” and everything in it. We like the “feel-goods” in church, and we’re willing to pay to get it – even if we know it’s a lie.
“The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? ” (Jer. 5:31)
People indulge in gluttony and get fat! Some have the excuse of diabetis, or eating problems, or biology. This is just like homosexuality, even though poeple have a predisposition to being a glutton and becoming obease, they should never do so because it is unhealthy. It is disgusting that anyone would indulge in this behavior, and that anyone would EVER condone their lifestyle.
What i have noticed is that a spirit of compromise has entered into the church. instead of preaching the gospel “in season and out of season” many pastors and leaders want to waterdown or compromise the gospel message to that peoples ears will be tickled and their chruch will “grow”. I cannot count the number of times pastors get on tv and talk about how they are the fasted growing church in terms of numbers, but they never mention christian growth. Isn’t that where our focus should be?
in their quest to become the next “super bishop/apostle/ archbishop/overseeer” pastors are mimicking worldly things in the church. Things like “flowertry” “painting in the spirit” “krunk dancing” are all things that pastor and church leaders allow and encourage in the house of worship just to “keep the youth interested”. so what happens when the novelty wears off? what will it take to keep the kids there then? why not teach them the gospel, the scriptures, and teach them to love the word of god?
muslim children can recite portions of the koran, jewish children must recite from memory large passages of the torah for their bar mitzxvahs. catholic children must pass ccd classes in order to be confirmed. but in the black church as long as you can “dance in the spirit” you can be called to preach. no learning, no substance no decipleship.
the worship service must not be allowed to denigrate into a circus. the focus must return to christ.
i saw a youtube video of kids “krunk dancing” at a church here in Boston and i was shocked at the focus was all on how creative the individual could dance or krunk. absolutely no glory to god! i happen to notice a cross on the wall behind the dancers and realized how much christ must be greived by that nonsense in his church. most new churches don’t even put a cross in their buildings!
I don’t know if lukewarmness is a sin but it’s definitely the way I can describe many churches including the one I’m at now. The priorites of most churches are something different than what is in the bible. If you have a musical, the church is packed out. If we say we are going to go witness in the community or have a prayer meeting, only a handful come. I would just like to see more passion about the things Jesus gave us as a commission.
Furthermore, I don’t think it is a denominational thing.
Then there is just an omission of open but loving church discipline. I grew up in a time, when the drummer was selling drugs and the pastor before the congregation told him that he is never touch the drums again until he gets saved (it took him years).
Now you get a lot of not wanting to offend anybody. Just like one church I was attending in Austin, had its youth crossdressing before the congregation while singing on the praise team on youth sunday morning. Nobody says anything anymore, although COGIC is a little more strigent about ensuring that you are who you profess you are–there is still this, I don’t know what you call it– lukewarmness, lack of concern, or fear about these things.
I’m with concerned saint. THe love of money has perverted method and ministry in the modern American church. It is a lust that will never be controlled. It is an idol that must be cut down and smashed into powder. The god of Mammon is what is worshipped in a lot of churches. The parade of fashion, cars, excess and constant building of houses of worship (?) that appear to be memorials to the ego of the pastors are shameful evidence that we are missing the mark.
Pride in the ministers is #2 in my view. THe new emphasis on pomp, glossy photo shoots for publicity, HUGE Bishop’s rings, personal assistants, drivers, attendants, armor bearers ( as they are so called), EVERYONE has a title now: Rt Reverend has replaced the Biblical term of “Bishop”, pastors wives are now “Elect Ladies” ( a misunderstanding of John the apostle’s address) The laud of the men and women of GOD, rising, standing, honor (?). Has anyone tried to recognize all the people who must be so prior to speaking at a church function lately? You need crib notes! I find all of this riddiculous and a sign of arrogance and pride. My long held views.
I don’t know if lukewarmness is a sin but it’s definitely the way I can describe many churches including the one I’m at now. The priorites of most churches are something different than what is in the bible. If you have a musical, the church is packed out. If we say we are going to go witness in the community or have a prayer meeting, only a handful come. I would just like to see more passion about the things Jesus gave us as a commission.
Furthermore, I don’t think it is a denominational thing.
Then there is just an omission of open but loving church discipline. I grew up in a time, when the drummer was selling drugs and the pastor before the congregation told him that he is never touch the drums again until he gets saved (it took him years).
Now you get a lot of not wanting to offend anybody. Just like one church I was attending in Austin, had its youth crossdressing before the congregation while singing on the praise team on youth sunday morning. Nobody says anything anymore, although COGIC is a little more strigent about ensuring that you are who you profess you are–there is still this, I don’t know what you call it– lukewarmness, lack of concern, or fear about these things.
In short: 1) holiness; 2) study and application of the Word; 3) denying the deity and power of Jesus Christ (we just saw that in the “church” video posted earlier. You will find that these issues creep up in both “mainstream” and non-denominational/apostolic churches.
A fourth issue is the Church not operating in “informed faith” (as opposed to foolishness or presumption).
The things I’ve noticed in most churches I’ve been a part of are no discipleship, little to no discipline of members who are openly in sin, and an appalling ignorance of the Word of God. I have no idea how prevalent this is across denominational lines. I’ve only belonged to Baptist and Bible churches. The church I presently attend does have a discipleship program, we do practice church discipline and there is an emphasis on Bible study both in the church building and in individual homes. Even with all of that, we are nowhere near where we should be as a church family. If there’s food or music involved, the building is usually full. If the emphasis is on prayer or study of the Word, you can shoot a shotgun in the place and not hit anybody. With all of that, this church is still doing 99% better than the previous one I joined.
Generally Christians are so lackadaisical about the Word that it is pathetic. The basic attitude is we pay the preacher to study and preach so that we don’t have to. That’s a direct contradiction to the Word. We are instructed to “study and show THYSELF approved unto God…” It is hard to live out what you don’t know. Anybody can come along and tell you anything if you don’t know the Word for yourself. Everyone that I know who has come out of the heretical Word of Faith movement came out because they began to study the Word for themselves and found that the WoF doctrine did not square up with the rightly divided Word of God.
Discipleship is almost always totally ignored in churches. You can’t bring a new born home and expect him to feed and change himself. As in the natural, so in the spiritual. Most churches have people who are babes in Christ, ignore their spiritual needs, and fail to disciple them and then expect them to grow into spiritually mature saints. Our churches are full of immature, spiritually stunted babes and they wouldn’t be if the church would obey the Great Commission. We are commanded to disciple! It is not optional!
Discipline of members who are openly in sin is an open call to warfare in the local churches. People would rather argue about nonessentials and get upset because you called sin what it is -SIN – than correct the sinning party and put them back on the path to holiness. We seem to feel the best way to deal with open sin is to officially ignore it while keeping the gossip, oops, I meant to say “prayer” lines on full blast.
My brothers and sisters, this ought not be! Shall we continue to conduct ourselves in this manner? God forbid!
Can someone do some in-depth article on the following Superstar Church Leaders
Jamal Bryant
Liston Page
Noel Jones
Once, a long time ago I looked at these guys in terms of their preaching and though that they were profound but oh what a mess when the revelation of their hidden life comes to light.
Once I though Bishops Page and Jones were giants as PREACHERS (Bryant was always more of a showman) but now the things that have been exposed about these guys could cause many to stumble.
Another thing that needs serious addressing is the salaries that our ministers earn. I know of one who worked in a factory earning $25k per year but decided to go full time and now earns $90k a year (he also claims every expense he can get, including allowances for his wife to shop until she drops so she can show off how much clothes she has but yet he never invests a penny in any hungry, orphan, widow etc in the church). As a pastor he is totally hopeless (only there because who he is friends with), he can’t preach to save his life, does not visits anyone other than his friends and other ministers in his circle, won’t preach the gospel in fear of losing members who pay his salary. Like Eli this ministers allows proven homosexuals to sing on worship team when he knows that the lifestyle is sin and has even recommended one exposed homosexual for ministry. He wants to make his children ministers who in terms of God’s word, soberness and spirituality are worse than her dad (one has a known drinking habit, one is a serial adulterer who also has issues in terms of her swearing and the other is a secular musician) but it is what he wants because he thinks that ministry can be passed on like a family heirloom and he promises people positions in the church as long as they back his ungodly regime. We need to stand against this.
Totally agree with that Pastor Foster.
We need a revolution in the Church, what has happened is that people go into a Church and dont see things happening and it is how they are discipled. Fact is if you come into the church and see vibrant evangelism it is likely you will do likewise, I know for me I just never saw it happening.it was taught I must admit but we must start practicing these things in the Church and be deliberate in showing – Jesus did it for 3 years with His disciples.
“Personally, my concepts of church is changing. I am favoring more and more the 1st century model of church. Today’s church is a political system grind built largely upon the demands of mammon.”
Totally agree again, what happens in mega churches is that people dont feel the need to get involved, it is an easy place for people to just do the quota thing of going to Church on Sunday, if it is convenient. Yes, the money thing has been abused from the pulpit and thats it.
Pastor Foster, really feel God talking to me about starting a ministry when I go back to Miami and I would like what I read in Acts to be a model. No one is hungry or homeless and we break bread from house to house and I believe miraculous things will happen! I
God bless!.
The aforementioned comment attributed to “searchtheweb…” is actualy from me, elder jimmy. Is is prideful of me to have made that clear?
A lot of Bishops and Pastors have stopped wearing their wedding rings at church, but they expect for their wives to wear theirs. They have come up with some stupid excuse not to wear them. Women have gotten ridiculous and so have men when it comes to dress. As I recall Cain got in trouble for not giving to God the best that God had given to him and God refused his sacrifice. Well I look at the way people dress to come before God the same way. If GOD has blessed you to be able to wear a nice respectable suit and an nice respectable dress to church, when why are you giving him jeans, tank tops, tube tops. shorts, tennis shoes, lugs, miniskirt, tattos, nose rings etc. If he has blessed you to wear better and we know exactly what better is then why are we not. Now if jeans are all you have to wear fine otherwise men and women leave the jeans at home on Sunday. You can find a pair of inexpensive slacks at Wal-mart, Target, TJ Maxx, etc. Women cover your top jewels and loosen up those skirts some so you can breathe, and put on a slip it it’s see through for heavens sake. They do still make those ok. Also, women have become more interested in who can wear the baddest hat to church and they need to be cut down too, cause no one can see around or over a spaceship. Some of these things are not even hats, but show pieces. Ladies leave the saucers at home and stop coming out looking like the mad hatter.
Two things come to mind…
Titus 2:4
“That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,”
and… Not enough proverb 31 women.
The deception of feminism has creep in the House of the LORD. There is this push of a steady diet in the contemporary carnel church, to feminize men. Over the pulpit, “so-called” ministers are bombarding the few men in the congregation with teachings to love their wives (as almost to worship her), lead their homes in a way that if they fail, GOD will judge him because of his role as the head.
Yet the lack of teaching to women, that they should be wise to build their homes, be industrious to supply for her family, do all that she does to bring her husband “good” all of “his” days, is omitted because of the many preachers fears of being called chauvinistic pigs, harsh, or unloving as a man. Because of the ignorance of many of these ministers to confront this guile of the feminist movement (yes, a movement in the church), many women are disrespecting leadership, their husbands and God.
It is my contention, that when a woman disrespects her husband, this is sin. And one of the consequences of her bold abd forthright sin is that in turn her children will disrespect her. The snakes in the feminist movement would have you believe only that it is mother who is to be respected. These children of the devil, has not respect for the honoring of men and fathers.
Children learn respect for authority in the home (and in society),from the witness of respect their mother gives in a God-honoring way to their father. A wise woman builds her home, and reverences the order of headship in the way God designed it. The husband is the head of the wife. Wives are to submit to their own husbands.
Because of the subtlety of feminism seeping in many of these sisters, may so-called Holy Ghost filled, sanctified in the name of Jesus’ wives, have been for a long time giving more honor to their pastor than they give to their own husbands. THIS IS EVIL AND A GROSS NEGLIGENCE OF FAMILY AND GOD’s WORD. Many of these women – filled with the Spirit of Jezebel – stand up among God’s congregation and hoop and holler and pastor and lead and conduct themselves in roles that God has not designed for them. These Satan inspired ones have a twisted “foolosophy” where their branches say “Jesus”, but their roots are thick and deeply grounded in devil’s doctrine of feminism. That’s why there are so many female types in churches. The church house has become a bed for them to lie in, and a place where they can go to satisfy their deception. They now can come as they are, in tight pants, short skirts (for any of them who would even put on a skirt or dress), low cut blouses, prideful attitude in that a man can’t tell them anything. They can be very vocal to the point of where they boast in their knowledge of the Word of God. This evil from the streets of the feminist movement has been supplanted smack dab in the middle of God’s sanctuary.
“Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.”
The other thing is the MUSIC. Carnel music that builds up a false spirituality in the “saints” that pretty much forces them to dance and shout and sway and spit, to think they have experienced the presence of the LORD and know without a “shout” of a doubt, that they are close to Him. This worldly music that lulls many into deception, many to believe that have reached another level in Christ.
The church has accepted all genres of music as worship. Hand-in-hand with the New Style of Worship and Music is a casual approach to Deity, so that they only hear reference to “Jesus” rather than “The Lord Jesus Christ” or “Our Lord”. The main reason for this is that it is considerably easy to sing rock and pop idiom songs to a “chum” rather than the “Lord” of creation. No wonder many don’t contest to the Devil’s SONG “JESUS is my Boyfriend, JESUS is My BOO”. Blasphemous and frankly SAD!!!
wheres that in the Bible?….thats a bit of a stretch to compare Cain’s offering to what you wear when you go to church…last time i checked, the NT saints were having meeting in their house…it doesnt say anywhere that they dressed up when they met together….the only standard on dress that the Bible gives is modesty, period….everything else is opinion…people can be modest in jeans or suits…
Personally, my concepts of church is changing. I am favoring more and more the 1st century model of church. Today’s church is a political system grind built largely upon the demands of mammon.
you said a mouthful right here, sir…i’ve been reading up on the house/simple church movement…i believe that God has been leading me in that direction for a minute now..
Rob:
I agree with you in some respects, but I think you are being a bit harsh regarding women in the church. In addition to the scripture you cited, Ephesians 5:21 says that husbands and wives should submit one to another. I believe the reason some people started pointing out the scripture regarding husbands loving their wives is that, for years, the only scripture repeated at church was the one where wives are to submit, as if the husband had no responsibility regarding the marital relationship other than providing for the family.
In many married relationships, the old-school concept was that the wife was to submit, the husband could be domineering basically treating the wife like a slave, and there was no edict concerning an intimate, loving relationship. My parents (my mother is now deceased) had this type of relationship and my father is a retired pastor. This seemed rather one-sided to me and not the type of marriage I wanted. It was not until I became an adult that I was aware of the scripture about husbands loving their wives. IMO, if a husband does not love his wife he will be mean to her and this is not the will of God. I have a very godly husband who loves me and shows it, while being an outstanding spiritual head and provider for our family. The two concepts (loving and being the spiritual head) are certainly not mutually exclusive.
I agree that no wife should honor her pastor more than her husband. That is neither scriptural nor common sense.
Rob, while I can appreciate the frustration that is evident in your response regarding women and music in the church, I take sharp exception to your unncessarily scorching retort in your assessment of women. As Gwen pointed out, husbands and wives are to submit to one another–inherent of a delicate balance of roles, mutual respect and responsibilities among men and women in marriage AND should be taugfht in the congreations as such.
As a single woman, I would have a difficult time, at best, “submitting” to a “leadership” that is domineering and totalitarian, expecting me to be w/o a voice, opinion, talent, esteem and value in the relationship. The very phrase “prideful attitude in that a man can’t tell them anything” is highly offensive because it does speak chauvanism. This is a qualifier between mere males versus true men of God–those that treasure their wives BY EXMAPLE, not by foreceful or condescending dictation.
While I am in agreement with what the bible outlines concerning specific gender roles and behaviors, I make myself keenly aware of any man that would use scripture to brow beat anyone into subservience. I totally reject it. That is a hallmark for an abuser which introduces a copesetic setup for domestic violence, a huge problem that is prevelant in the church–WHICH IS A SIN.
To that end, please exercise discretion, balance and temperance in your future posts in what could have been otherwise otherwise an informative response.
Thank you for that follow up, Gwen!
First off, I apologize for getting off the subject as this forum is to address the question “what other sinful topics or behaviors do you see the church participating in?” I attempted to give my answer by saying that the sin of Christian feminism is heavily embedded in the church in general and in particular the church I attended for years
But to address Gwen and Carmedia…
No, I am not being harsh, I am just giving a dose of “harsh” reality. There are bossy women in the Church, who usurp authority over men. Many would not admit to this because it is so subtle, BUT IT’S THERE. The attitude that many of these women brings under the umbrella of love and service and worship is in complete defiance against scriptures.
As for Ephesians passage, yes God says that we should submit on to another. Many of these feminist thinking type uses this verse to avoid the force (God-given by the way) of Ephesians 5:22, Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. The attempt in their avoidance gives to their ridiculous meaning to “in the LORD”, as if to say that wives should only submit to their husband if he is biblical in his ways.
These bossy women and mealy mouthed preachers concede to the idea of what is called “mutual submission” in marriage, where they redefine ‘submission to mean something like considerateness, thoughtfulness, an attitude of love toward one another, putting the other person’s interests above your own.
“In Ephesians 5:21, the Greek word for submit is hypotasso ( be subject to, submit to).
This word is used many times in the New Testament.
Demons are subject to the disciples (Luke 10:17: clearly the meaning act in love, be considerate cannot fit here!)
Citizens are to be subject to government authorities (Rom. 13:1,5; Tit. 3:1, 1 Pet. 2:13)
The universe is subject to Christ (1 Cor. 15:27; Eph. 1:22)
Christ is subject to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:28)
Church members are to be subject to church leaders (1 Cor. 16:15-16
Wives are to be subject to their husbands (Col. 3:18)
None of these relationships are ever reversed. Husbands are never told to be subject (hypotasso) to wives, nor the government to citizens, nor masters to servants, nor the disciples to demons. Clearly parents are never told to be subject to their children.
N’Catina:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Despite what some have perpetuated in the church for years, marriage is not supposed to be a dictatorship with the husband giving orders that the wife accepts without question. In the wife’s role as a help mate, this would clearly not be helpful. Indeed, it is the wife’s duty to respectfully bring things to her husband’s attention that may need to be corrected. It is all in the manner that it is approached and as long as this is done in a respectful and loving way, it is for the benefit of the entire family.
All my life I saw my father give my mother orders with never a kind word toward her. My mother was the most godly, saintly woman you would ever want to meet and never disrespected my father in any way. The fact that he never showed her any love at all let me know that that was not God’s will. He was a very good provider, but the fact that my mother died after 47 years of marriage without her husband showing her the intimate kind of loving relationship that I have with my husband still hurts. (My mother passed away in 2002 and my father has since remarried. By the way, he treats his new wife with much more kindness than he ever showed my mother, which makes it hurt even more.)
Try this blog: http://www.pulpit-pimps.org. There are blogs on at least one of these people (if not more).
Mark 12:30 says,
“And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.”
This is our problem – and the only problem we have in the church today. WE DON’T LOVE GOD LIKE WE SHOULD. If we loved God we would keep his Word. Bottom line.
I couldn’t sleep after reading the posts above. I agree with alot of the comments. It all boils down to loving God with everything in us – that’s really His only requirement. The second command to love our neighbor will happen just becasue we love God. And this is a love that develops as any other relationship. Our problem is that we don’t want to build the relationship – and what we decide to build we try to make it on our own terms instead of God’s.
God loved us enough to save us, but we want Him to accept us as we are. We love to throw out that God looks on the heart, and man on the outward appearance, and just expect God to deal with it. But out of the heart (inner) proceed evil things (which show on outer). But He’s longsuffering and merciful enough to give us time to do it right. Not do it how we want to.
He already accepted us as we were once when he drew us to Him. Now it’s for us to love Him enough to allow Him to make us what HE DESIRES US TO BE. And that’s a reflection of His love to the world – that he can change you. God’s unconditional love is free, but we must not take his kindness for weakness.
We try to treat God like the b/f or g/f we just never really loved, but kept around b/c we knew they were sprung over us. We know if we call them and sweet talk them they will do whatever we ask. Or we keep cheating on them, and crying to take us back over and over, and we know they’ll take us back. But is that love?
We can’t do that when we dress, talk, behave inappropriately. We can’t respect one another either when we do these things.
I’m a 26 year old man, sadly discouraged by the level of carnality in our men and women in the church. I could do a twelve hour message on this. As stated in other posts, we don’t pack out the prayer meeting, bible study, or really dig into the Word on our own. That requires too much effort, sacrifice. We want the power that the old church displayed, but fail to attain the relationship and surrender to God that they acheived and maintained.
Think about how God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, solely because he loved them. Yes, they cried out to Him, but was it to know Him, or to rescue themselves from the suffering? Look at how God’s heart was toward His people, and he delivered them. And because they didn’t really love Him, they barely made it out of the gate before they turned back to the Egyptian practices, and never SANCTIFIED themselves (removed idols, earrings, amulets, etc).
We have the same mentality. God saved us, and got us out of the lifestyle that was destroying us., and we took our salvation for granted and now refuse to sanctify ourselves and draw close to Him.
This is where women in pants/makeup/immodest clothing crept in. Men in earrings/pimp suits/long hair came in. All vanity and vexation of spirit. We were of the world, and followed that trend, and when God saved us, we were happy for a moment, but some of us never let go of the things that were holding us from completely separating from the worldly mindset. So now we’re trying to force God to accept us as we are. And we do so not by looking to God in prayer and consecration, but as the scripture says it “comparing [ourselves] among [ourselves].
My favorite singer/bishop/pastor’s wife/church mother is doing it, and they saved, so why can’t I? This is the culmination of men worshiping other men, or becoming lovers of themselves, worshiping the creature more than the creator. And look at where the church’s spiritual authority has ended up. 1 Peter 3:7 talks about prayers being hindered as a result of inappropriate dress and conduct between men and women, spouses. Are we seeing this correlation?
This wasn’t common in the old church I hear about from my father and remember from my childhood; it was whatever they said it took to make it, people did it. Why? Because they really wanted God; their attitude reflected who shall separate me from the love of God? I’m willing to do it to gain everything Christ promised me in the Word. We’re called to covet the best spiritual gifts; I guarantee you the worldly looking ones don’t have them.
I challenge anyone that reads this to seek God, lay aside everything (food, tv, spouse, self) 3 days or more (if able), and really focus on what he desires. And I guarantee you he will respond if you seek Him in sincerity.
Stay watchful, prayerful, run the race to win.
God Bless,
Bro Dixon
P.S. Sorry for the length but I could have gone on forever.
Amen to that, Bro. Dixon. Thank you for that challenge.
I feel that there is no fear of God among many Christians to say the least. Many “Christian” entertainers, such as Tyler Perry, are incorporating cursing and drug use in their movies and using words and phrases such as “Hallelujah” and “Praise the Lord” lightly. Many people are playing with God and not regarding Him as the God who is great and terrible! Many Christians are also wearing the name “Christian” like they wear the latest style of clothing or expensive handbag, not realizing the fact that being a Christian, that name and position were bought with a heavy price-at the expense of God giving up His only Son so that He may lay down His own life for us that we might become children of God. As children, we are commanded to fear the Lord. When we don’t honor and fear Him, how can we expect others to?
Pastor, do you have any information about President Obama’s proclamation of the month June as Gay, Lesbian,Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month.
Pastor Foster
If you decide not to show my comments in your blog, I’d understand. My attempt is not to be confrontational, but to stay in line with the question that was posed. Here GOES…
STRANGE FIRE…
I note some “strange fire” when lots of Christian women seem to adapt to the idea that they would have a difficult time to a “leadership” that is domineering and totalitarian.
Yet when I read Paul’s admonishment for wives, he ADMONISHES wives to even submit to their unsaved husbands, their submission to be a light to win these lost husbands (likely to be dictators and domineering because they don’t know Christ) over to Christ.
I note some “strange fire ” when hearing many Christian woman cast labels upon men as being “domineering and demanding”, when scriptures point out some clear examples of the controlling nature and manipulative ways of several women who would usurp authority over men:
The curse -
Gen 3:16 “…and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Many interpret this to mean that the woman will desire to dominate the relationship with her husband.
Rebekah control to have her child deceive his father -
“And he went, and fetched, and brought [them] to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved. And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which [were] with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son: And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck: And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob. And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I; who [art] thou, my son?
Job’s wife –
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. Job 2:9
I note some “strange fire” in the deception that many of these women are under, as they can readily see men and husbands being demanding, willing to point out this sin in him, willing to lash out in her response to him; yet says nothing about her evil ways to dominate and control.
IT IS WRONG FOR ANYONE TO BE DOMINEERING and CONTROLLING. I CAN GO ON WITH the STRANGE FIRE I NOTICE IN “church” WOMEN with this one.
THE refrain most of them show for godliness in the area of submissive is appalling. Yes many see themselves as “STRONG BLACK WOMEN”.
I note some “strange fire” when hearing these Christian women use language similar to the likes of Oprah and Dr. Phil, speaking in terms of “balance in a relationship, both submitting to one another mutually”. The Bible makes it plain when it states its case that “wives submit (not husbands), husbands love”. That”s God’s “balance”.
I note some “strange fire” when I hear men addressed as a “mere provider”. This when he provides for his family, is being like Christ as he is sacrificing himself to meet his family ‘s needs. The key word is “sacrifice”. It should never be taken for granted that providing is something he is “merely something he is supposed to do”. He really doesn’t have to it, yet he is making a conscientious choice to do it. PLAY this one down all you want, STRONG BLACK WOMAN.
I note some “strange fire” when listening to Christian women speak the exact language of the world, when they say they should have “a voice, opinion, talent, esteem and value in the relationship.” Passionate as these Christian women would think to believe, but in direct contradiction to the traits that Lemuel’s mother (a godly woman) admonishes for her son to seek for in a wife.
STRANGE FIRE…STRANGE FIRE…
This is not for fight, but for “get right”.
I know men have many problems. I just object to the way the many churches are handling the “role of the sexes” within the congregation. When it comes to roles, men are adhering to some false teachings of doctrine by women (and men). Many women are not attributing to the LORD’s calling for them.
The LORD wants relationship between men and women to work according to His plan. For husbands and wives, he says he hates divorces. Yet the divorce rate for Christians is about the same, if not higher, than that of non-Christians. The majority of these divorces among Christians are initiated by WOMEN, despite God saying “HE HATES DIVORCE” (Mal. 3:16 – For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:…). Women are initiating these divorces not on grounds that are biblical (many believe that there is no such this as a biblical divorce) or for abuse, but out of selfishness because she feels “HE DOESN’T love me anymore”. THIS IS JUST WRONG!!! This is in total disobedience to God and is killing the family. When it comes to physical abuse, statistics shows that it’s about 50 / 50 between men and women. I can go on with this one, but think I’ve said enough.
I love my church. Does anyone else attend a calvary chapel church?
I’ve heard said that churches tend to get into problems the longer they exist, and that God tends to build up new churches as old churches get into problems.
Probably the most ‘pure’ churches are the underground churches in Russia and China. The mid east countries have secret Christians that have to hide their faith and it’s very difficult to spread the gospel. Some only have one page of scripture that is treasured. The Christians in North Korea…many are imprisoned, tortured, murdered, but there is currently a great revival going on. Praise God!!
In light of the fact that the President decided to “tone down the National DAY of Prayer” as far as the White House is concerned (my emphasis on the word “DAY” as in just ONE day!!) (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/06/obama.prayer/index.html) , I too was quite disappointed that he made the following procramation declaring the WHOLE MONTH of June as Gay Pride Month! (See text of his proclamation below) Since President Obama claims to be a Christian, I have to include this kind of unregenerate thinking as contributing greatly to “Sin and the Church.”
THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
June 1, 2009
LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, AND TRANSGENDER PRIDE MONTH, 2009
- – - – - – -
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION
Forty years ago, patrons and supporters of the Stonewall Inn in New York City resisted police harassment that had become all too common for members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community. Out of this resistance, the LGBT rights movement in America was born. During LGBT Pride Month, we commemorate the events of June 1969 and commit to achieving equal justice under law for LGBT Americans.
LGBT Americans have made, and continue to make, great and lasting contributions that continue to strengthen the fabric of American society. There are many well-respected LGBT leaders in all professional fields, including the arts and business communities. LGBT Americans also mobilized the Nation to respond to the domestic HIV/AIDS epidemic and have played a vital role in broadening this country’s response to the HIV pandemic.
Due in no small part to the determination and dedication of the LGBT rights movement, more LGBT Americans are living their lives openly today than ever before. I am proud to be the first President to appoint openly LGBT candidates to Senate-confirmed positions in the first 100 days of an Administration. These individuals embody the best qualities we seek in public servants, and across my Administration — in both the White House and the Federal agencies — openly LGBT employees are doing their jobs with distinction and professionalism.
The LGBT rights movement has achieved great progress, but there is more work to be done. LGBT youth should feel safe to learn without the fear of harassment, and LGBT families and seniors should be allowed to live their lives with dignity and respect.
My Administration has partnered with the LGBT community to advance a wide range of initiatives. At the international level, I have joined efforts at the United Nations to decriminalize homosexuality around the world. Here at home, I continue to support measures to bring the full spectrum of equal rights to LGBT Americans. These measures include enhancing hate crimes laws, supporting civil unions and Federal rights for LGBT couples, outlawing discrimination in the workplace, ensuring adoption rights, and ending the existing “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy in a way that strengthens our Armed Forces and our national security. We must also commit ourselves to fighting the HIV/AIDS epidemic by both reducing the number of HIV infections and providing care and support services to people living with HIV/AIDS across the United States.
These issues affect not only the LGBT community, but also our entire Nation. As long as the promise of equality for all remains unfulfilled, all Americans are affected. If we can work together to advance the principles upon which our Nation was founded, every American will benefit. During LGBT Pride Month, I call upon the LGBT community, the Congress, and the American people to work together to promote equal rights for all, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim June 2009 as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month. I call upon the people of the United States to turn back discrimination and prejudice everywhere it exists.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this first day of June, in the year of our Lord two thousand nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-third.
BARACK OBAMA
One of the things I’ve noticed is the blatant lack of preaching the Gospel. I recently visited a church and heard a sermon on “family and friends” and how good they are to have. Then the pastor opened the doors with an invite to join “the family.” People came up in droves to join, still not knowing they are sinners and in need of Jesus, who died for them and is their Saviour. His death, burial and resurrection, of course, was never mentioned.
I kind of understand how it has come to be so many mega church’s are packed with people who are clueless about the Lord… They’ve never heard of HIM!
I ‘ve noticed that the body of Christ lacks compassion for people going through problems. And as long as prayer is the only thing you need they will not help you. If your problem is a financial one you can forget help. I have knowed of a few people asking for help of a financial nature from the church they fellowship at and being turned down by the benevolent committee.
Why is it that the church has no problem sending their members to the world for help? While at the same time asking, demanding or manipulating the congregation for money.
What shocked me is that he concludes this proclamation of june 2009 as Lesbian, Gay pride month with…”in the year of our Lord two thousand nine”
It may be presedential protocol–but it is ironic if not disturbing that “the Lord” would be mentioned anywhere in this piece.
Tracy, you are definitely right about that. The hideous lack of compassion in the modern day “church” is courtesy of the perpetual greed the WOF & prosperity gospel “teaching.” This “non-instruction” inherently teaches adherents that they are in control of everything, including finances via their formulaic brand of “faith.” Thusly, if one loses his/her job, that person is first told that it is their fault for “not speaking over their situaiton,” and that they need to “exercise their faith” by giving their last dimes expecting them to miraculously become dollars for the big “turnaround.”
In the meantime, these worthless charlatans are continuing to get rich at others’ expense; not concerned about the intensifying poverty, discontent, disappointment, dispair, anxiety, fear,.embarassment, shame and uncertainty they are perpetuating every single time the doors are closed to those in need.
Gwen, thank you for your response, and I do agree w/your assertion regarding a woman’s role, as well as what elements should and should not be in a marriage. Again, the point I made with my post was to address the detrimental attitudes, behaviors and motives too often present when discussing the biblical husband/wife roles in marriage, and the abuse that can arise if not approached correctly, thus my angst w/Rob’s comments.
I am a product of a dysfunctional home whose parents were married for 46 years prior to my father’s passing two years ago. Despite the physical provisions, the union was w/o affection, kindness and mutual respect for all involved. It has garnered a brokenness in everyone that has now perpetuated itself into a third generation of people. I cannot in good conscience duplicate this sorry scenario. It is these dynamics that requires me to be more strident in examining the life, background and attitudes of any potential spouses in a marriage situation.
Rob,
Paul’s admonition to wives being in submission to their husbands comes after his direction for believers to submit to one another in love. We are also told in scripture to honor one another , preferring one anaother and to esteem each other higher than ourselves. The teaching on submission in marraige is to be understood in the context of the overall teaching of love and authority in the entirety of revelation in the scripture. 1 Corinthians 13 tells us what love is. I wish folk (you) would focus on the fact that Paul said that husbands ought to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it (sacrificial)love her as his own body (protective and abiding love), etc. The idea of submission is best understood when authority is godly, loving, protective and wants the best interest of the one who is called to submit. As it relates to submission to church leaders; the leaders should not “lord over the flock”. Again, in Paul’s teaching he is emphasizing the responsibility of the one in leadership.
If a husband and wife divorce and they are Christians they will have to live according to the the teaching on mutual submission.
Submission is to bring order and peace.
Yes, there are some “bossy” women. In my experieince a lot of these bitter women have been wrongly treated by fathers, brothers, husbands and mnisters in many occasions. Lack of leadership from men is a far greater issue in the church (particularly the Black church)than of women who are usurping (to snatch) authority.
Some of the GCMW readers may not know this but this type of thing happens in the pentecostal church in the USA every single day of the year. In fact there is a church in my area that "specializes" in this type of ministry (thing). At one time the congregation was bathing in salt and olive oil as a protection from demon spirits. A very close frind of mine told me this and her mother is a member. I told my friend that the only thing those people will have after the 40 day salt/oil bath was glowing and exfoliated skin. ____I am not implying that all pentecostal churches do this but many do. I believe in the work of deliverance. I have experienced freedom from an evill spirit
GCMW: Did you mean to post this under the gay demon story?
This became a hot subject!!! I’ll try not to keep my finger on it too long for fear of getting burned!
First, I believe the family is the center of all society, including the church. If the family is messed up, the church, or the body of Christ is messed up. Therefore, I will make a comment or two about it.
Second, I believe the leadership is a gigantic problem also.
A. The Family
1. There isn’t a prerequisite for a husband to love his wife. The COMMAND IS “Husbands, love your wives even as also Christ loved the church”, NOT “Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church ONLY WHEN SHE’S SUBMISSIVE/OBEDIENT.” There are great godly husbands who have unsubmissive/disobedient wives. They can take the low road and not love their wives in response to the wives’ unsubmissiveness/disobedience, but then the husbands would be responders to circumstances instead of being led by the Spirit of God in him and his word. According to 1st Corinthians 13 as Elder Jimmy pointed out, that wouldn’t be true love anyway!
Love isn’t love if I only react “lovingly” to my wife’s good behavior. True love is loving her regardless of my wife’s response. True love loves my wife whether she loves me back or not. True love takes the initiative and doesn’t respond to circumstances.
2. There isn’t a prerequisite for a wife to be submissive/obedient to her husband. The COMMAND IS “Wives, sbmit yourselves to your own husbands”, NOT “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands ONLY WHEN HE’S LOVING YOU AS CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH.” There are great godly women who have unloving husbands. They can take the low road and not submit/obey their husbands in response to the husbands’ “unlovliness”, but then the wives would be responders to circumstances instead of being led by the Spirit of God in her and his word. And that wouldn’t be true submissiveness/obedience anyway!
Submissiveness/obedience isn’t submissiveness/obedience when all of the decisions made are in my favor. Submissiveness/obedience is submissiveness/obedience when there is a decision made that isn’t in my favor or that I disagree with. I’m not talking about right or wrong as in “honey, will you kill your mother for me,” that’s a no brainer. Example: It doesn’t take submissiveness/obedience if a husband gives his wife a credit card and tells her that she can use it. But it takes submissiveness/obedience when the husband says “Honey, you’re buying too many things with the credit card, we’re over the limit, please hand me the credit card until we can get the finances back in order”. ……that’s when Real submissiveness/obedience is needed! And using the christian life as an example also: It doesn’t take submissiveness/obedience if the Lord tells me to stay here in Dallas, Texas to minister and teach bible studies. But if he tells me to go to preach the gospel in a gospel-hating third world country where they persecute christians, that’s going to take REAL submissiveness/obedience to the Lord!!
3. If the husband is loving his wife as Christ loved the church, and the wife is submitting/obeying her husband as the church submits/obeys Christ, BOTH HUSBAND AND WIFE’S NEEDS ARE MET, BOTH ARE SUBMITTING THEMSELVES TO THE LORD AS FAR AS THE PRINCIPLES OF MARRIAGE ARE CONCERNED, AND BOTH ARE SUBMITTING THEMSELVES TO ONE ANOTHER. Paul doesn’t say “Husbands, have an expectation of submission. And wives, have an expectation of love.” We get into trouble because we leave the focus of the instructions – which is my attitude and behavior as to what I should be doing as a husband or my attitude and behavior as to what I should be doing as a wife. It’s hard for a woman to be submissive to a unloving husband, but it’s hard for a man to love an unsubmissive wife also. Those facts aren’t the issue. IF WE CHRISTIANS MARRY GODLY MEN AND GODLY WOMEN WHO HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF THESE THINGS AND TEACH OUR CHILDREN TO DO THE SAME, I THINK DISCUSSIONS LIKE THESE WILL DECREASE.
4. When husband and wife are doing husband and wife things according to the word of God, the children are going to see it and 9 times out of 10 respond positively to it. And the church will be strong and rooted as the Lord desires for it to be. However the family goes, so goes the church.
B. Leadership
1. If leadership is strong, the church will also be strong. I think I mentioned in another post that a weakness humans have is that we need to “see” our leader, i.e. – a pastor in front of our eyes. Israel wanted a physical king and unfortunate to say, many in the church is the same way. Usually how the leader goes, we go. Nothing against pastors, bishops, etc………God gave them to us. But the leadership has to be knowledgeable, wise, faithful, BOLD, and godly among other things. When a pastor has these qualities, it usually pours down to the congregation. He holds on to truth and doesn’t compromise, the congregation holds on to turth and doesn’t compromise.
2. If the leadership sucks, the congregation is going to suck. God mentions that in Isaiah and Jeremiah many times:
Isaiah 9:6 – “For the leaders of this people cause them to err, And those who are led by them are destroyed.”
Isaiah 56:9-10 – “All you beasts of the field, come to devour, All you beasts in the forest. His watchmen are blind, They are all ignorant; They are all dumb dogs, They cannot bark; Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.”
Jeremiah 23:1-2 – “Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.”
And the Lord Jesus said that the blind leads the blind into a pit. Which leads to something else that’s missing in the church also – DISCERNMENT. If there isn’t any discernment from a man or woman (regardless if they’re married or not) there usually is BLIND a following of a false leader.
Sheep follow sheperds, whether saved or lost. That’s reality. And I believe that is one of the reasons why God said he will give his people shepherds/pastors according to his own heart, because he knows the sheep follow shepherds and he wants his shepherds to have a heart and attitude to leading his people in the ways of truth and green pastures!!