Category Archives: ex-ex-gays
Are pentecostal leaders secretly questioning biblical view of homosexuality?
According to Anthony Venn-Brown, a certain mega church pastor now lurking in the shadows, is questioning whether culture and history carry more authority than the Bible on the issue of homosexuality. And the unnamed pastor (location also withheld) says more evangelical/pentecostal leaders are “discussing” the same thing. If that’s true —and without any intervention— gay christian heresy may find eventually find a more welcome home among pentecostals than it currently does in the Episcopal church.
Venn-Brown, the ex-ex-gay turned life coach, whom we wrote about back in April 2008, posted a letter on his blog he alleges is from a “mega church pastor” who expresses an all too familiar line of heretical reasoning popularized by gay christian theology.
“We are very encouraged to find that there are a growing number of Evangelical/Pentecostal leaders who are willing to question firstly, if their attitude toward gay people has been Christlike and secondly if possibly our teachings about homosexuality have been more influenced by a cultural mindset and personal biases than a genuine reading of the scriptures in the light of historical/cultural contexts and with a sound knowledge of the original languages.”
Venn-Brown says the pastor will reveal his identity in his own time. Of course, instead of seeing God as the determinant of what defines sin, Venn-Brown conveniently blames the church for not affirming homosexual sin, and thus, he laughs it is “reaping what it has sown”. What’s more, Brown says that because the church rejected homosexual sin, the world is in turn rejecting the church.
Other than the word hate being used, Brown’s statement bears no resemblance to what Jesus said would cause the world to reject the church.
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, since I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. John 15:18,19
Im not sure about you but when it comes down to believing the words of Jesus or the words of a confused Australian life coach, I choose Christ.
Nevertheless, the letter is somewhat of a confirmation to what we have been warning. The pentecostal church has double-agents in place and its only a matter of time before they use their considerable influence to sway those weak in the faith to accept abomination vis-a-vis ideological seduction.
Beware and let no man deceive you with vain words no matter who they are.
The god of gay christianity and its false prophet speak
False teacher Fredrick Haynes went to San Francisco to help promote a lie. He did that and more. His July speech to the Black Church Summit, a puppet conference run by the left-wing gay political organization National Black Justice Coalition amounted to what was aegri somnia, the dreams of a very sick man.
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear 1 Tim 4:3
That’s exactly what Haynes delivered to the gay christians in attendance. Like an irresponsible bartender serving drunks, he plied them with rapid-fire religious cliches and faux homiletics. Judging from this speech, it difficult why anyone would laud Haynes as “one the most respected pastors among this generation”.
The video is a little dark, but you can hear for yourself the junk food gay christians are gorging themselves with from the mouths of Haynes and fellow false prophets Yvette Flunder and Deborah Johnson.
Haynes tells a story about a bear and a dream before he laspes into Obama-worship. Nothing new there.
He then contrasts Obama’s election against the defeat of Prop 8 in California. He blames black folk (whom he characterizes as bears destroying the dream) for the defeat of gay marriage. Of course that was a lie, because the LA Times based its defeat of Prop 8 on overblown exit poll data, but Haynes never mentioned that.
In fact this information was out in public more than seven months before Haynes’s speech. But such facts would have complicated his prepackaged lie. That’s the lowest form of pandering in existence. For all his so-called education, its unfortunate that Haynes is but another educated fool sucked in by the lie of homosexuality.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Eph 5:6
Even more tragic are the misguided people who would rather make homosexuals feel good rather than telling them they can be free from their sexual and spiritual slavery. How about that: a slave that’s fat and happy.
Gay christians and their scientific god
That was the case with Washington Post pundit Joel Engardio who wrote that the recent American Psychological Association (APA) ruling on homosexuality was “good news for gay christians.” It was because the god of gay christianity is science which has supported their rebellious, self imposed lie that homosexuality is normal and can’t be changed. Science, as interpreted by the amoral APA, excludes sexual morality. That’s welcome news to gay christians. Their god has exempted them from having to repent and turn away from their sin.
“…why then are there 13,000 gays at GCN – some traumatized by the ex-gay movement and others afraid of being subjected to it – who still want to be gay Christians? Because they believe God has room for gays who want to worship him. The conversations at GCN, online and at in-person conventions, don’t ignore the scriptures that admonish same-sex attractions. Leviticus and Corinthians are discussed and debated. Weight is given to the fact Jesus himself never spoke directly about gays. The dogma matters to them because these gays care what the Bible says. They just want to be able to practice their faith without denying who they are.”
Let’s see here. Gay christians just want to be able to practice their “faith” without denying who they are. Have they never taken the opportunity to read Matthew 16:24?
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
I checked the entire book and chapter and it contains no exemptions for people with homosexual issues. In fact, Jesus adds that anyone not willing to do as he said is not worthy to be his disciple. So gay christians by rejecting Jesus’ command in favor of your sexually immoral “orientation”, you’ve excluded yourself from relationship with God.
And you cant excuse that with the “but he loves everybody” line.
Answering the gcm's top lies
We promised to share sound biblical responses to the top 15 lies told by the gay christian movement in 2008. Im not sure if they will create new lies for 2009, but if they do rest assured the Bible has the truth standing at the ready.
1. There are homosexual couples in the bible.
There are two points to be made about homosexual couples in the bible. One, there may have well been homosexual couples in the bible, but there is no approval of those relationships. Everything in the bible is true, but not everything is truth. There are many things within the scriptures which are noted but not approved. Satan, incest, lying, murder exists but none of us would say that because it is found in scripture, then it is somehow justified behavior. Secondly, the individuals cited as proof of homosexual couples are not in fact homosexual couples. There exists nothing in the passages portraying Jonathan and David’s relationship as a homosexual one. Titus 1:15 says everything is clean to those who are clean, but nothing is clean to those who are corrupt and unbelieving. Indeed, their very way of thinking and their consciences have been corrupted.
2. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.
To say that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality in scripture is a technical half-truth, and anything which is not fully truth becomes a lie. In Matthew 19: when Jesus was asked about divorce, the answer he gave condemned all sexual activity outside the male-female marriage convenant. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? No Christian should ever argue that just because Jesus did not specifically mention something in scripture then it is because he or we should approve of it. Jesus never mentioned smoking, child pornography or identity theft, but we know these behaviors are wrong.
3. God created homosexuals like he created heterosexuals.
Actually, God created us holy. Ephesians 1:4. According as hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:…” The bible tells us that God created man holy and sinless, but that because of disobedience, mankind passed on a sin gene spiritually that has infected every person that enters the world. Whether one is hetero or homo sexual is a moot issue. Heterosexual sinners as well as homosexual sinners will end up in the lake of fire. But the statement is still false. Homosexuality is not a created sexual expression equal to heterosexuality. While there are expressions of heterosexuality which are sinful, heterosexuality is not intrinsically sinful. Homosexuality carries an abomination rating, not so much because of the sexual act, but because unlike any other sin, it is a direct attack on the nature of God as Creator. Reference Romans 1 (homosexuality is anti-nature spiritually, emotionally, sexually and relationally).
4. Jesus loves, accepts and includes everyone.
Yes, Jesus loves accepts and includes every sinner but only as sinners seeking regeneration through repentance. All sinners are invited to come, but once they do come to Christ, according to Matthew 11:28, Christ expects them to “exchange” the heavy burden of sin for his yoke. In this case, homosexuality is that heavy burden of sin. Once a sinner has accepted Jesus as Saviour, he must also make him LORD. If he is truly LORD, then his true servants will obey all of his commandments. Thus, the statement is a technical half-truth which intentionally conceals the most important aspect of the inclusive welcome of Christ. He welcomes all to come as they are and accept his standards of living while rejecting their own.
5. The Apostle Paul did not know of any loving same sex couples.
The assumption is that not personally knowing someone renders one (Paul) incapable addressing a situation. Its not necessary or required to know anyone personally to judge whether or not someone’s actions are sinful. That is why we have the sciptures, lest we opinionate on sin. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul said it was reported to him that a man was in a sexual relationship with his father’s wife. Based on this report, Paul commanded that the man be put out of the fellowship until he repented. The problem with judgment based solely on relationship knowledge is that a tendency exists to let our personal feelings for an individual prevent us from seeing sin for what it really is. Not only is this statement false in its intent, its a factual lie. Paul was an extremely educated man who was widely traveled. To suggest he didnt know any homosexual couples —”loving” or not— is to minimize his profound and expansive life experiences.
6. Christians are not required to live by Old Testament laws.
Answer: The bible, particularly the Old Testament has 3 types of laws: Ritual, moral and civil. Sometimes these three overlap. While all of the categories of known law reflect the nature of God and contain valuable lessons for all, not all are universally applicable. This is why 2 Tim 2:15 calls on us to “rightly divide” the Word so that we have proper application. Ritual laws applied only to the Jews, while civil laws applied to all who were under Jewish authority. However, moral laws(which covered sexual conduct) are timeless and universal. Jesus intentionally broke ritual laws (Matt 7:2) and when the situation required, he broke civil laws. But there exists no evidence Jesus broke moral laws. Nor is there any evidence he sanctioned or encouraged anyone else to do so.
7. The Bible was only talking about temple prostitutes, not loving couples.
God never condemned homosexuality on condition of consensuality. He condemned the act. Therefore, regardless of what context that act occured in, it is condemned. Time and culture do not affect God’s moral laws. For example murder is just as wrong today as it was when Cain murdered Abel. Sexual expression is no different. If God has condemned a sexual act, then his word remains the same no matter who is involes or why they are doing it.
8. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality but because of inhospitality.
It would be much more truthful to say that homosexuality wasn’t the only sin which caused Sodom’s destruction. In Ezekiel 16:49-50, God says there were multiple reasons Sodom was destroyed. “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. The word “abominations” in this passage refers to the sexual perversion of sodom.
9. The eunuchs Jesus spoke of in Matthew 19 are the same as today’s gay men.
All eunuchs in the bible were men, so the statement fails to justify lesbianism. In fact, eunuchs were men who were incapable of having sex. Every eunuch mentioned, from the eunuchs which threw the wicked queen Jezebel to her death to the Ethiopian eunuch baptized by Philip the evangelist, were righteous.
10. The bible has been used to beat up and subjugate blacks and women, now its being used to bash gays.
Yes, the bible has been misused to mislead people, but that doesnt make the bible wrong it makes the people who misused it wrong. The bible is also being misused by people who claim that God is okay with homosexuality when it says just the opposite. Yes, the bible has been misused against women and against people of color but this is no reason to continue misusing it by encouraging people to live in sexual rebellion and still claim to be followers of Christ.
11. Homosexuality is a gift from God just like heterosexuality.
First, there is zero scriptural basis for the claim that homosexuality is a gift from God. This claim is so outrageously false, I feel I must respond with raw truth. Romans 1:26-27 clearly teaches that homosexual behavior is not a matter of a person simply choosing to act on their desires. Conventional “wisdom” says that gays are born with the same sex attractions which at some point naturally progress into behavior. But a careful reading of the text shows homosexuality is not a progression from orientation to behavior, but a digression into death set in motion by God himself. Homosexual behavior is the result of a person refusing to reject their ungodly desires despite the clear word from the Lord concerning it. If we rightly divide Romans 1, homosexuality is not a gift but rather a payment for rejecting Gods truth. Romans 1 even teaches that such people fall so deep in deception that they exchange the truth for a lie. Clearly, the fruit of this lie to call a punishment from God a gift. The payment for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Romans 6:23.
12. Gay people are the new gentiles of the church.
Acts 15 gives us a very clear picuture of the first century gentiles who came to salvation. And it tells us how the apostles dealt with controversies which arose because of them. The major dispute arose from some Jews’ attempt to force new gentile converts to be circumcised as a prequisite for salvation and consequently the apostles met in Jerusalem to resolve the matter. The outcome of that historic meeting set forth two clear standards for the gentiles. (1) they were to abstain from all forms of sexual immorality and (2) they were to abstain from idolatry, blood and strangled foods. If they did this, the Apostlic council said, they would do well. Now, if the Apostles commanded the gentiles to abstain from all forms sexual immorality, how is it possible that gay christians are the new gentiles?
13. The church is lagging behind science and will be on the wrong side of history.
God’s Word was established before science was ever thought of. Ps 90 FRom everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man that he should lie, neither the son of man that he should repent. Has he not said it, will he not perform it? Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers and the flowers fade but the word of the Lord shall stand forever. Both science and scientists have been proven wrong before, but God’s word is true 100% of the time.
14. Homosexuals do not need to repent, be saved, delivered from or changed from their natural sexual orientation.
The fundamental problem with this position is that it changes the basic definition of sin. This is dangerous to the church because if we can willfully change definitions of certain behaviors, then we alter what people understand the consequences of that behavior to be. For instance, if our government were to make rape legal, there would be no negative consequences for the rapist legally. Likewise if the definition of what is or is not sin, especially when there’s a clear definition in scripture, it will deceive people and consequently lead to spiritual death.
15. Without gays in the church writing and singing the music, the church wouldnt have anyone to depend on.
Romans 11:29 teaches that gifts and calling are irrevocable. In other words, they are not subject to recall by God. And although God does indeed give gifts without regard to a person’s spiritual status, gifts and callings are never an accurate indicator of relationship with Christ. Without a relationship, Christ will tell such people to “depart for I never knew you” Thats sad and tragic to spend your life in church in a relationship with the gift but not the giver of the gift.
Top 15 gay christian lies of 2008
2008 was the year of major whoppers coming out of the gay christian movement. Here the their 15 biggest lies as summarized by GCM Watch.
1. There are homosexual couples in the bible.
2. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.
3. God created homosexuals like he created heterosexuals.
4. Jesus loves, accepts and includes everyone. (technical half-truth)
5. The Apostle Paul did not know of any loving same sex couples.
6. Christians are not required to live by Old Testament laws.
7. The Bible was only talking about temple prostitutes, not loving gay couples.
8. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality. (another technical half-truth)
9. The eunuchs Jesus spoke of in Matthew 19 are the same as today’s gay men.
10. The bible has been used to beat up blacks and women, now its being used to bash gays.
11. Homosexuality is a gift from God, just like heterosexuality
12. Gay people are the new gentiles of the church.
13. The church is lagging behind science and will be on the wrong side of history.
14. Homosexuals do not need to repent, be saved or changed from their natural sexual orientation.
15. Without gays in the church writing and singing the music, the church wouldnt have anyone to depend on.
In our next post, we’ll answer each of these lies in a concise manner with scripture.
Debbie Thurman responds to ex-exgay change fallacies
Excellent responses and spiritual insight from Debbie Thurman, founder of The Formers website. She refutes weak arguments by Anthony Venn-Brown, who we’ve also taken to task over his spreading fear about the overcoming process. The following is from The Formers discussion forum:
[Venn-Brown]: Before you invest the time, money, emotional energy and possibly years of your life trying to go from gay to straight, ask the ex-gay leaders what guarantee they can give you that it will work. If they are honest with you, the best they will be able to offer you is a degree of ‘heterosexual functionality’, but the gay never actually goes away. Then ask yourself what would be the best way to spend your life, time, money and emotional energy…..rejecting yourself or accepting yourself. Obviously loving yourself is far healthier emotionally, psychologically and spiritually, than self-loathing. After 22 years of trying to change including ex-gay programs, exorcisms and 16 years of marriage, I came to the realization that, in order to live a truly fulfilling life, the latter is a far better option than the former. Like 1,000’s of others today, I finally discovered I can live a wonderfully rewarding, moral life as an openly gay man and …………still have my faith. …
I want to address some fallacies in Venn-Brown’s argument:
It should also be noted that some people suffering from sexual abuse or addiction gain support and relief through some “ex-gay” organisations. We need to understand though, that heterosexuals who have experienced sexual abuse don’t say it made them heterosexual. Also heterosexuals with a sexual addiction never blame their sexual orientation or try to reject it. They understand that the addiction and their orientation are two separate things.
1. That the only alternative to being gay is being straight or fully heterosexual. This leaves out the perfectly legitimate option of choosing celibacy, even if all same-sex feelings are not eradicated. Why should we believe God would eliminate this temptation, which goes to deeply rooted psychological and spiritual brokenness, when He doesn’t eliminate others, like heterosexual temptation, pride, greed and other lusts of the flesh? Did God eliminate Paul’s “thorn in the flesh”? He did not. He merely said, “My grace is sufficient for you for power is perfected in weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). This is a truth Christian gay activists (or “ambassadors,” to use Venn-Brown’s self-moniker) choose to ignore, at the peril of judgment.
2. That the gay never goes away. The gay can and does go away. “Gay” is a social, political and now a religious identity. That can disappear when one decides to stop belonging to that community. Same-sex attraction or homosexual thoughts may not ever fully go away. What if they don’t? See the above. That’s no excuse.
3. That you must reject or hate yourself if you eschew homosexuality or a gay identity. What we are all called to do, when we come to Christ, is to deny our right to ourselves–to take up our cross and follow him. We are no longer ours but his. What we must reject is our sin nature, realizing, as Paul did, that we will still want to do the very things we hate from time to time (see Romans 7:15-25). The world and its ruler pull at us nonstop, but we are not defenseless. We have spiritual weapons (Ephesians 6). Note, they are not carnal weapons. There is no self-actualization in Christianity. That is idolatry. If you love God (the first commandment), you will naturally come to love and be at peace with yourself. Enthrone yourself above Him, and you get chaos.
4. That affirming or accepting yourself as a homosexual is consistent with faith in Christ. You may choose to live as openly gay and still have “your” faith. The question is: faith in what or whom? You are saying you believe God can do many things, but changing you is not one of them. This is too hard for the God of the universe? Please! It is too hard for you. Many things are too hard for us. We don’t give in to them all.
The second paragraph I quoted from Venn-Brown is about the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen. Childhood sexual abuse causes one to be disordered in several predictable ways. Heterosexual abuse (that’s mostly a male abusing a female) may lead to a hyper-sexualized personality that is basically heterosexual. It also can lead to a rejection of the feminine (i.e., an identification with the masculine in order to be stronger) in girls, which also closely correlates with same-sex attraction. In boys abused by males, the abuse can lead to a fear of the loss of masculinity, and a conventional theory is that homosexual coupling is a means of meshing with or seeking the masculine. Other family or environmental dynamics can add to the confusion or brokenness. This is all widely available in the psychiatric literature and certainly not my theory or pontificating.
The straw man argument that sexual abuse doesn’t make one heterosexual is meaningless. It makes one heterosexually disordered, the same as it can make one homosexually disordered. But we don’t have a movement trying to normalize sexual addictions of the straight variety (except by NAMBLA and the like) because it is obvious to most that they are not a good thing. They are self-destructive behaviors, often leading to a cycle of abuse. We know about the “bad” gays. But gays setting up house just like straight couples are increasingly viewed as normal. Few want to address the soul-destructiveness of even these “good” relationships. Physical and emotional dependency (a sort of psychic cannibalism) where there is no natural gender complementarity is unhealthy, no matter how lovely it appears. It’s fool’s gold. And Satan is an angel of light, as well as the father of lies.
Denver paper casts gcm as "modern day lepers"
The Denver Post featured a story on gay christians written to evoke emotional sympathy with the headline by casting them as “modern day lepers”. Don’t think for one minute that the msm would evaluate gay christianity on the basis of scripture. Scripture contains too much negative absolutism when it comes to homosexuality and the goal of the msm is to redirect people from the Bible to personal feelings. Emotional overload is the tactic used to sway most uniformed people to support homosexuals who claim victimization by the church. The leper phrase came from a man who was booted out of his Catholic church because he wrote what he calls “gay romantic fiction”. Actually Scott Pomfret’s stories are soft core homosexual pornography, even though he claimed to be a Christian.
“We’re more modern-day lepers than martyrs,” said Scott Pomfret, author of “Since My Last Confession: A Gay Catholic Memoir.”
“Why do we remain in this Church with whom we have so many fundamental difficulties and with which we experience so many disappointments and frustrations,” said Pomfret, 40.
He said he suspects his faith is deeper than words.
Last month, after his memoir came out, Pomfret’s Boston church removed him from several lay leadership posts he had held. The parish’s Franciscan friars had always known he was gay and an author of gay romance novels, Pomfret said, but the memoir made everything too public.
Candace Chellew whom we’ve exposed here before as a false teacher blamed “religious voices — not God or the Bible — have screamed the loudest against the full inclusion in society of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people”.
The comparison to lepers in the Bible is interesting mischaracterization on the part of the gay christian movement. Today homosexuals are celebrated, rich, powerful, talented, politically important, heads of religious groups and control whole sections of major cities. Gay “buying power” in the US is expected to reach 2 trillion dollars in just three short years. In addition, homosexual culture has had a significant influence on every facet and segment of our society, including the church.
But lepers in the bible were real life outcasts who could not even enter a city. They were confined to city dumps to scavenge for food and clothes. If they did they were forced to yell out “Im unclean, Im unclean” to warn others so they would not be unclean by contact.
What’s more, in the New Testament, Jesus frequently healed lepers of their disease. They willingly sought him out to be cleansed so that they could be whole, productive citizens. Jesus also commanded his disciples to heal the lepers as part of his great commission. Leprosy, through the eyes of the Biblical authors was a disease which most closely resembled the sin condition. If you want to see the ugliness of sin, take a look at the picture of the leperous woman.
Perhaps that is why Jesus made time not to just “include” them, but cleanse them as an example of what his ultimate mission was. This is what is central and important when evaluating demands of “inclusion” by homosexual activists in the Christian church. Jesus’ every encounter with lepers produced results. And every result was that the person(s) were set free from their condition. Even if they had been lepers for many years, their encounter with Christ, brought freedom from it, not inclusion in it. He never left them the way he found them.
But no so with the gay christian movement. Sadly, they continue to reject any idea, notion, biblical passage, truth which says Christ will heal them of their homosexuality. If you have any doubts about that, check our stories here and read comments by gay christians and their supporters. Spiritually blind, they lash out at any attempt to help them walk away from their sin.
The leper comparison, unfortunately, is just another vain attempt to gain access to something gay christians cannot have unless they truly repent.
